The Labors of Social Ostracization
Friday, September 14, 2012 at 12:49PM IT’S ALIVE! IT’S ALIVE! IT’S ALIVE!
“Osterman’s book and TV spot, although well-intentioned, are ill-timed and done without input and NOT approved by the defense.”
So said a recent @gzlegalcase Tweet from the George Zimmerman Legal Case website in response to the release of Mark & Sondra Osterman’s book, Defending our Friend: the Most Hated Man in America. Mark and his wife are the Zimmermans’ closest friends. Mark considers George his brother. It’s much more than just a mere bromance. From Dr. Phil’s interview:
“George had pure ideals, a nobility of character that I admired. I kind of wanted to be like him,” Mark says. “When I first heard that George had shot someone else, I was extremely shocked. I know that it would have been the absolute last resort.”
I sense a rather strange relationship between Mark O’Mara and his client. I’m certain that the attorney begged his ticket to fame and fortune to refrain from going on The Sean Hannity Show to spill the latest version of his face-to-face with Trayvon Martin. I think Osterman, Zimmerman’s own personal zenmeister, coaxed his li’l grasshopper to take to the airways. Unfortunately, that particular outing did absolutely nothing to enhance his credibility, but I suspect it was God’s plan all along to show the world exactly what made this grasshopper hop. In that regard, Osterman succeeded, and so did God, I guess, because li’l grasshopper ended up winning the hearts of no one. But don’t tell the Ostermans.
That’s why I am inclined to believe that this new book revelation came with George and Shellie’s blessings. Another shot. Any opportunity li’l grasshopper has to expose his name to glaring lights and stardom, he’s all for it. Cha-cha-ching! After all, he took this shooting as his ticket to paradise, as he and his wife alluded to in a taped phone conversation during his initial incarceration at the Seminole County jail, as the money kept rolling in:
“After this is all over, you’re going to be able to just have a great life,” Shellie said.
“We will,” George replied. “I’m excited.”
“Yeah, you should be. You should be excited,” Shellie said. “I wish you were here, of course.”
“I will be,” he said.
“Isn’t it crazy how something like this just makes you put everything in perspective in life?” Shellie said. “It’s amazing how insignificant the things we stress out over are.”
“I agree,” he replied.
Imagine that. They both agreed that the shooting death of Trayvon Martin was so insignificant, it was nothing to “stress out” over. Why, even the second-degree murder charge was nothing but a farce, and this is a complete contradiction of what Osterman told Dr. Phil. Oh, how George cried and cried. What this illustrates to me is that Zimmerman looked up to Osterman as his iconic mentor; the man who would justify his need to be a top cop. While I’m never going to infer that the 28-year-old set out to shoot anyone that night, he had convinced himself that it was a right thing to do given the right circumstances. He was trained. It was pumped into him and he was primed. What better way than to set those circumstances up the right way? His way. This would make him Osterman’s equal. Yes, this was God’s plan; this was his destiny. Osterman would be proud. And in the end, he was.
While I could ostracize the air marshal, I won’t. He has no idea what kind of Frankenstein monster he helped create. He only saw his student’s docile side. Granted, Osterman was once fooled by a con man when he and another Seminole County sheriff’s deputy met Juan Diaz, who convinced them he was a second basemen for the New York Yankees. Sure, the guy took them to strip clubs flashing money, and Osterman ended up losing his job over it in 1998, but that was a long time ago. Certainly, he wouldn’t be deceived again. Would he?
I think so. But still, I won’t hold it against him. Not personally. Even in the 1931 horror movie, we could feel some compassion for Dr. Frankenstein, who didn’t set out to create evil, but in the end, he still came to the beast’s defense and lost whatever innocence was left. While I am convinced Osterman is a fool for believing Zimmerman’s alibis, we all tend to put faith in our friends; some more than others, and there remains that inherent element of naiveté. We want to think people are well-intended. How many professionals — doctors, lawyers, airline pilots and, yes, federal agents — find out their spouses have been cheating on them long, long after the fact? Let’s face it, Zimmerman is a natural born liar. While you may question Osterman on his judgment, I think I’ll be looking at something else that hit me like a brick; something he said on the Dr. Phil show. It may be meaningless, but still…
“When I first heard that George had shot someone else, I was extremely shocked.”
Someone else? Just how many people has George Zimmerman shot? That triggered my alarm. Where was Osterman’s safety when he was shooting his mouth off? Oh, that’s right, he doesn’t use one. Straight from the hip. Just like li’l grasshopper.
TO EACH THEIR OWN
Speaking of the monsters we create, it’s easy to see what can happen when people let things get out of hand. Caution is thrown into the wind and trouble flares. During the entire time I covered the Casey Anthony case, I watched people go from friendly and mild-mannered to as loony as they come, all in the name of justice for a little girl they didn’t even know. Don’t get me wrong, we all seek justice, but people vary on how intent they are to get it and how far they are willing to go to prove it is their way or the highway. Talk about standing your ground. What is often neglected is that it is up to the court system to decide, not the public, as we shockingly found out when the jury came back with their verdicts at the end of Casey’s trial. Interestingly, as adamant as people were throughout that ordeal, how quickly they moved on.
Because I had a popular blog, I was subject to a lot of scrutiny. I think there’s another blogger who is quite aware of that now. Out of the woodwork came bands of miscreants determined to shut me down. I was gay, I had AIDS, I was a convicted felon and so were my parents. I was a plant for the defense out to take down the sitting judge. One woman had her grandchildren chanting “Death to Marinade Dave!” and she proudly told others. Everyone who dared comment on my blog became targets for attack. One was supposed to be thrust into a snow bank and left to die. It was the most disgusting group of people I had ever run into in my life. Ironically, these very people prayed deeply to God that justice would come for Caylee while they hypocritically spewed hatred on people they didn’t know from Adam.
Here we are, at it again. With Zimmerman, there’s the race factor. There’s gun rights. Emotions are running quite high across a much broader spectrum. There’s politics; liberals against conservatives and Democrats against Republicans, not to mention the NRA and Second Amendment rights. There’s a $10,000 bounty on Zimmerman’s head, dead or alive. We are witnessing character assassinations of the “n”th degree, with “n” being the word that most folks should have thrown away with the dirty bath water they washed their mouths out with long ago. Once again, people are getting hurt in so many God-awful ways. Ironically, one blog opens their day with The Lord’s Prayer before their brood goes on a self-righteous rampage on everyone and anyone who stands in their path. Trayvon was a drug addicted thug dealer with a history of violence. Every single word that comes out of the mouth of George Zimmerman is the Gospel truth. Every word. Yet, they really know nothing about him.
This is my opinion. What they talk about over there is their business. While I certainly disagree with their opinions, they have a right to discuss the case the way they want, although I do draw the line on spreading falsehoods and, particularly in this day and age, republishing copyrighted artwork that’s licensed to someone else, especially when it’s pirated from the website they are attacking that actually paid for the work. This is a real war, folks, and people are going to get hurt.
CLICK TO IMAGE TO ENLARGE
There are also blogs that are intent on implicating others in the crime. We saw it with Roy Kronk during the Casey case. The poor guy was run through the ringer because he found Caylee’s body. Even Leonard Padilla claimed Kronk was involved in some sort of intricate daisy chain. Kronk placed the body there, not Casey. How sad that people who do good things are sometimes burned beyond recognition by a false story that’s so fiery to touch, it blinds some to the truth. Sadly, his life will never be the same. Almost a hero, he’s also seen as a villain.
Look at one of the rumors that’s made the rounds of late. Someone was in the vehicle with George Zimmerman the night of the killing. It was Frank Taaffe. No, it was Shellie. No, it was Mark Osterman. Whoever it was, it has become Gospel to those “fact” finders who choose to buy into it. They need no proof because, so it was written, so it must be true. Call it the Lemmings Doctrine.
The problem with this sort of missive is that it can destroy a person. No doubt, Frank Taaffe has his own monsters to fight, and he certainly needs no further encouragement to go off the deep end, so why push him off the edge? Is it fun to belittle a teetering man?
The fact is, George Zimmerman acted alone. All by himself, he pulled the trigger. Why try to include others? In his book, Mark Osterman wrote that Shellie was at her father’s house at the time of the shooting. She immediately called him while he was out walking his dog in his own neighborhood. He was never at the scene prior to the police showing up. Whether you choose to believe him or not is your own prerogative, but I base my opinion not on what he wrote. Instead, I use common sense, just like what generally guided me throughout the Casey Anthony case. I take my guidance through documentation, evidence and the State. Nothing points to anyone else. Not one shred of evidence.
For example, every piece of trash in the woods where Caylee’s body rested was not attributable to her. That old worn out tire did not come off her car. There was no proof the needle in the bottle ever touched her hands. The State of Florida never used it in any of their documents, and that’s where I put my faith. Nowhere in this present case has the State mentioned an accomplice at all, and until they do, the thought of it is not plausible.
In the meantime, we are not put here on this earth to make a mockery of others, are we? Take it from one who knows; one who’s experienced it — it’s not fun being the target of incessant, never ending ridicule, abuse and lies that lead nowhere but down, especially coming from people hiding behind some really strange faith in a god that not only encourages it, but seems to relish in it. That’s not my God, and it’s as much of a mockery of God as Zimmerman telling Sean Hannity that the shooting was God’s will. How ludicrous.
Tree hugger, Tray hugger, what’s the difference if it’s nothing more than a stupid mind game where all that matters is that YOU win? Plow into everyone in your path!
Cross Posted on The Daily Kos
Dave Knechel | tagged Dr. Phil, Frankenstein, The Sean Hanninty Show | in Angela Corey, Bernie De la Rionda, Casey Anthony, Caylee Anthony, Dave Knechel, David B. Knechel, David Knechel, Donald West, Drugs, Frank Taaffe, George Zimmerman, Marinade Dave, Marinade Dave Knechel, Mark O'Mara, Mark Osterman, SYG, Sean Hannity, Seminole County, Shellie Zimmerman, Slimm v. Zimm, Social/Political, Sondra Osterman, Stand Your Ground, Suburban Drive, Trayvon Martin, Zimm v. Slimm, Zimmerman, gzlegalcase, marinadedave | Share Article 
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Reader Comments (117)
“George had pure ideals, a nobility of character that I admired. I kind of wanted to be like him,” Mark says.
Dr. Phil: so do you know about the middle eastern man he bullied and verbally abused? Best friend: "No, never heard that one".
Newsflash to the Master of Firearms, you are just like him. A real piece of shit.
Regarding the quote from GZLEGAL. I call BULL. Dont tell me the self described best friend/brother and the guy who would die for his firearms apprentice, wouldnt call off an appearance on day time TV if his bestie asked. Like Dr Phil said to the guy gloating about being friends with a child killer, dont insult our intelligence.George probably dictated the whole thing, aside from giving it his blessing.
I watched a nutter youtube today and it referenced the others surrounding the situation being "pulled in" by TRAYVON. LOL. Not the guy who,guilty of murder2 or not, started this whole series of events by being stupid and dangerous. Like Oliver, Dad, Brother,Taaffe all front and center inserting themselves initially, had their arms twisted. Even George called Hannity then, trying to get on TV. And now we have another set to try and profit. I cant say profit off George, because he started it, and probably plays some part in orchestrating it all, just like we heard on the jailhouse calls.
Also, people with troubled lives, like George, often drag in their loved ones. And their loved ones play an active role in perpetuating it. Its called codependency. I see it all over this guy and his posse. And you can tell a lot about one thru their friends and acquaintances. Drunk drivers, drug addicts, cheaters, bad family relationships,prison, living in mommy's house, having their bills paid etc etc. Disastrous.
Sorry to hear ur being attacked Dave. Not surprised, but that sucks. I think we all know, though, why they do what they do, and how they look to the REAL masses, us normal folks, when they do it. Theyre like George too. If they get a fleeting moment of feeling slightly better about themselves they can have that momentary sensation. Its not permanent. LOL.
Thanks, Manberk. They were the most decrepit of human trash, who put on their Sunday best and strutted off to church. That's the worst kind, and I'm seeing the same thing happen all over again. They hide behind the anonymity of the Internet, where anything goes. It's the wild, wild west, all over again. Anonymity shields them from sin, so they think.
Imagine that. They both agreed that the shooting death of Trayvon Martin was so insignificant, it was nothing to “stress out” over.
Sorry, but seeing this kinda stunned me, that doesn't seem like that's remotely what they said. What Shellie actually said was:
"“Isn’t it crazy how something like this just makes you put everything in perspective in life?”
It seems they're saying it's something like the shooting of Trayvon Martin is so big that it puts everything else in perspective and all the other little things they stress over are insignificant in comparison.
[Good to see you, Bryan, despite the fact that we tend to disagree. Take a look at this MEDIA site and tell me what the body copy says, then come back and tell me how wrong they are. They weren't alone, either:
George Zimmerman jail phone calls released
It does seem to be remotely what they said, but I'd be willing to discuss it further. Everything is on the table, but it's right in there on Jail Call #1.]
Sometimes, by trying to help, your best friend can become your worst enemy.
I think George's website isn't pulling in the cash like he expected and so he and his good friend went in together on the book with the proceeds going to GZ. I think he had heavy input into it. After seeing a video of Osterman at the police station talking to George on the stairs, I think now think he did have a heavy hand in how the replay of the crime was scripted. I wouldn't use the term "mounted" would you? True GZ may have picked it up in his criminal justice courses but it wouldn't have been that easy to include it as part of normal speech unless it was used before over and over (or someone used it in the explanation of what he was to tell the police). The effect on Osterman's testimony is yet to be seen, but I think he's just put himself on the wrong side of both the defense and the prosecution. Dr Phil has a good saying that would fit Osterman right now. "What were you thinking?" .
Shelly and GZ's prison phone calls were more in line with "we have all this money, we're set for life" than any remorse for a teenager left face down on wet grass. You were thinking "someone else", and I was thinking "Shelly allowed a gun into her house after this guy she's married to had a battery restraining order filed against him in the past?!"
The best thing about blogs is it allows a lot of different opinions on the same subject. They allow us to see it from the other side, like Snoopy has been doing, and form our own ideas. There are a lot of nut cases out there for sure... I tend to let them stay in their tree and I stay in mine. Everyone is entitled to their own opinion. I don't have to make it mine if I don't want to. If they inch over, or try to, I know where that little x is in the corner of the screen, and I won't visit the site again. I also change passwords regularly.. monthly, even weekly if needed. . I try to stay safe on here.
Good post, Dave.
[Thanks, Connie. I think it's wise to change passwords, Connie. Several of my accounts were hacked back then and one was lost completely. That's over with, but I see new problems sprouting all over the place, just like back then. New people, new targets. Same old, same old. Meanwhile, Z's funds are drying up.]
Dave~~it was a pleasure to read your own thoughts that you incorporated into this posts. You have the experience under your belt to view things in a light that makes sense. I must say that I am total agreement with 99.9 % with everything you stated, a rarity in itself. Ahhh, now I have you wondering what that .1% could be. I will save it to the end but I am sure you will have guessed who it may be about.
Thanks to our Vicky, Sempre Invictus, some of us got a glimpse into Osterman's book. Mark Osterman took George Zimmerman from the drinking and partying and mentored him so he would see the error of his ways. In fact, Mark wanted to fashion Z to end up in the likeness of himself. How cozy! How egotistical ! He taught Z to remain calm, cool and collected under all circumstances, stressful and otherwise. (we saw this immediately after the shooting).
When you start to work with clay, the outcome will not always be what you had in mind. Unless you are a professional artist, your masterpiece may not turn out to your expectations. This is how I view Mark Osterman, the artist who may have created a monster. That may sound harsh but hidden deep within the clay still remains the spots of the leopard.
I am of the mindset that during Z and Shellie's stay with the Osterman's for those six weeks, the book was already being drafted.
Instead of a novelette here, I will be adding more comments pertaining to your post, Dave. I just finished watching the Dr Phil show and it was tough ...really pulling at the heart strings here... the anniversary of Kim's death is just around the corner on the 20th. I cannot even imagine how I would have coped if she had been senselessly murdered. The void left behind is unbearable at times even under normal circumstances.
BTW, that .1%.... you said...with regards to O'Mara...the attorney begged his ticket to fame and fortune Shame on you, Mr Pickle, you know this is not true. Shame on you!! LOL Thanks for a great write-up.. I will add a bit more later..
[Very well said, Snoopy. Yes, we've been through a lot, and only you, a mother, can know what it feels like to lose a child. I'm sorry for that.
By all means, let's discuss this. I'm glad you agree with most of it. As for that .1%, all I can say is that O'Mara was the one who told the media he was going to make $400/hour and it was his ticket to fame and a promising future, including making the media circuit post-trial as a legal analyst. Not that there's anything wrong with that, but he did, in fact, say it. I reiterated it.]
George's little website brought in a large amount of money, far more then either he or anyone else expected - over $250,000 bucks.While the haters and pundints were making hay over the case on TV, a nobody from Florida puts up a site asking for help and gets it. No wonder it makes the Trayvonites go crazy. Can't get a discussion going over this case. It is one sided or the other.f
[Sure it did, lyn, but it didn't take long for O'Mara to tell the public that the well had dried up and more donations were necessary. What I pointed out was that they expected to live high on the hog because of the death - hardly what I would expect to hear from someone who "sincerely" tried to apologize, and I use that word VERY loosely. By the way, you are free to comment. I like to hear both sides, despite my leanings.]
lyn~~would you be so kind to let us know how the fund raising is going now? You know, since the evidence started to come in and after George Z's appearance on the Hannity show.
I will agree with you on the 'nobody' when referring to Z. You best not let him hear you suggest he is not a somebody.
By you using the word 'Trayvonites', it give me a look into your mindset. This case can be discussed as one sided or the other but it takes a certain intellectual class of people to achieve that in a respective way.
Are you up to the challenge?
Dave~~ It looks like there is evidence still being held back. We are getting it in dribs and drabs...
The latest batch of the state's evidence in the second-degree murder case against George Zimmerman will be released on Wednesday, prosecutors said today.
The records are among those given to Zimmerman's defense last month, including 217 photos from the Florida Department of Law Enforcement, eight photos taken by a private investigator, Zimmerman's school records from Manassas, Va., eight incident reports, several crime scene drawings made by witnesses and the cell phone records of 17-year-old Trayvon Martin, who Zimmerman shot Feb. 26 in Sanford.
State to release more George Zimmerman evidence next week
[Yes, Snoopy, I saw that report. I believe it was thought that Trayvon's phone records would not be part of the release, but I could be mistaken. Thanks. Boy, if we got them, that could help clear up a lot.]
Dave, you sure have a way with words...GZ just like the A's setting up "donate to me" site...I wonder if I could do that...After all I have a limited income...more than enough bills.and I'm looking at surgery in the near future...Just to add insult to injury...more bills that will get paid off to the tune of "a bone here and a bone there"...I'm sure everyone has been in this situation at one time or another...GZ's friends must be true friends to help out with his expences, but it looks like GZ's freedom, for the time being, is a bit extravagant...Brings back memories of the A's eating surf and turf or what ever it was at the expence of TV networks...Those two didn't work either and they also were right there face in the cameras even when their house was in forclosure...Well, I guess the "Fraudation" served it's purpose...I wonder when folks will get tired of these methods of survival...."Gimme, gimme"...
[Thanks, Estee, I try to word things properly, but it doesn't always come across that way. Unfortunately, it seems that in today's world, the badder you are the better your chances of striking it rich, and that's a real shame. I think, in the long run, GZ's expenses are going to be so high that he won't be able to live high on the hog like he originally planned, and going out to eat is not as convenient as it was for G&C. There's something unromantic about eating surf and turf with plastice knives and forks, isn't there?]
Dave: While I believe you are correct in saying Osterman was never at the scene prior to the police showing up, we can be sure that he was at the scene shortly thereafter. It is written that he did not speak in depth to the officers or to George. However, imo, in depth is an interesting choice of words, and leaves lots of ‘shimmying’ room. Did he say ‘brothers’—as in standing united forever—that is interesting, too.
The following is quoted directly, and respectfully snipped, from a summary of an interview with Osterman, conducted by SAS David M. Lee, on April 26, 2012:
On February 26, 2012, [redacted] received a call from Shellie Zimmerman informing him that G Zimmerman had been involved in a shooting. [Redacted] went to the scene where he met S. Zimmerman. [Redacted] advised that he did not talk to G. Zimmerman or any of the officers at the scene in depth. [Redacted] accompanied S. Zimmerman to the Sanford Police Department (SPD) where they waited in the lobby until G. Zimmerman was released the next morning. {Snipped}
Regarding Mr. Taaffe, no, of course, it is not fun to belittle a teetering man. However, that teetering man gave a series of hate filled interviews on behalf of George Zimmerman. Remember—‘if you plant corn you grow corn?’
I usually enjoy your wit, but I take offense to the following: “Tree hugger, Tray hugger”.
If you mean Trayvon Martin huggers, I will admit I am proud to stand in solidarity with that group.
I am emotional right now due to the Dr. Phil show, but those people are in a sea of pain and deserve our support. And our respect.
And justice should always matter.
J4T
[I proudly consider myself a Tray Hugger, nan11, but not THAT kind of Tray Hugger. Not the kind that attacks everyone in their path, as I stated at the very end of the post. While I believe 100% that Frank Taaffe made his own bed and must lie in it, I don't condone using him as a scapegoat. All I'm saying is that he can only be responsible for his own doing. Why would anyone place him at the scene of the crime when no proof exists? Why add fuel to his self-ignited fire? Why blame anyone else for what Zimmerman did? To me, that's as far-fetched as the the Tree Huggers, only in the opposite direction. To be more clear, I'm talking about the ‘conspiracy theorists;' the theorists who support Trayvon but believe that Zimmerman had help. They are Tray Huggers, too.
The Dr. Phil Show was very, very emotional today. Very sad.]
Dave~~we are going to have to settle that .1% so we can get on to the nitty gritties of your excellent post. I know you wont concede and I am stubborn so..........Fame maybe but I am not so sure about the fortune, in the present or post trial. Mark took on this case pro bono so there goes the $400 per hour. Once the money started to roll in to Z's defense fund, I did hear Mark say that he would be charging Z his $400 rate. Well I hope O'Mara tendered an invoice while there was still a balance left in the fund because at Mark's last presser, he had received Zero...zilch for his legal counselling. I expect to see Z declared indigent in the offing, maybe sooner than later... there goes that $400 per hour as the JAC doesn't pay that rate.
There you go, you may concede anytime....lol Dang, you know how I am when 'Standing behind my men'... even tho I feel like kicking their butt while I am bringing up their rears...lol ( ö¿ö )
[OK, I'll concede, but it was his intent to make $400/hour and he still stands a very good chance of making lots of money off this case when all is said and done. Would he consider a book deal later on?]
Dave~~it's me again.... oh lucky you!
I read about the conspiracy issues on another blog. I think it was totally ludicrous to even suggest such a thing. I am surprised that the blog owner went along with it. They had Shellie in the vehicle with George while he was on the phone with the non-emerg dispatcher.. they heard her voice...nope it was Mark Osterman because he was seen at a bank machine on surveillance at RTCircle. Well maybe not, it definitely had to be Frank Taaffe who had tipped Z off so Z went and picked him up and off they went to hunt down a black burglar. It is amazing how the figments of one's imagination can put them out of tune with reality.
[That's precisely what I'm talking about. I saw way too many conspiracy theories crop up during the Casey Anthony case and it was sickening. I kept saying, if it can't be verified, be careful what you believe. I'm sure it's not just one blog that wrote about it, either, but my question is, what was it based on besides a whim?]
Estee~~me thinks that I should set up a fund raising site for both of us. Just kidding but it is the 'fools' who donate to these sites that make them what they are. Without donors these sites would become passé. Who are some of these donors? They include some gun owners who are terrified to think that the concealed and carry law or the SYG laws may be changed. There are also the racists who donate. We do not like to get on the racism subject but they are out there. I am all for donating to legitimate causes and the money going to the Zimmermans can be so better off going to some of these.
As to the Ostermans mentoring George ( I wont include Shellie as I think her hubby pulls the string in that family) about being frugal with his money, he certainly needed a few more mentoring sessions. They had quite a sum of outstanding bills at the time of the shooting. Judging from Osterman's book, George was spending a lot of money living the high life. It costs money to keep in with the elite crowd.
Estee, good luck with your pending surgery...hugs, my friend.
Im a mine of useless info ...The saying dont throw the baby out with the bathwater arose came about a hundred years or so ago.Back then there was no indoor plumbing an baths were zink metal useally filled up with hot water boiled on a range in the kitchen.There was a pecking order to whom had the first bath.An they all used the same water an baby was last in the pecking order.So by the time the baby got its turn 5 or more could have used the water an it was filthy an more like a mud bath that a water bath.Hence the saying dont throw the babyout with the bathwater.As it was so dirty it could easily have been impossable to spot .No matter how much the defence tries to muddy the waters the facts remain constant.Trayvon is not on trial nor is his charecter.GZ has done more to prove what a liar he is whom has no respect for the legal system...Has anyone else heard that on the night of the incident he lied to LE .An told them he had no prior history of arrest an never been in a pre trial diversion....PS thnks for an excellent article Dave.....
[I never knew that about the bath water, ecossie. Thanks for that info because I love to learn this kind of stuff. You know, you'd think the baby would get first dibs because they weren't all sweaty and dirty. I remember hearing about heating the water on the stove, though, and the tubs.
I don't know how GZ's supporters can justify his lies. Yes, he did lie to law enforcement on the first night. What do they attribute it to? ADHD? First night jitters? Tha cops forced him into a corner? I just don't get it.
Oh well.
Thanks, ecossie. It's always great hearing from you.]
Ecossie~~ahhh you sell yourself short, Matey. That was a goldmine of useful info. I was next to the baby in a family of eight. Now I know why I never felt clean after getting out of that big galvanized tub on Saturday nites. lol j/k
Ecossie Eww gross! Now I am thankful for our bath tubs. I hope people do not cause you any trouble Dave. I know this will sound selfish but I will be banned. Mom already told me.
Snoopy for what it is worth, I do not think Mr. O'Mara is in it for the fame. Personally I think he is nuts for representing to Mr. Zimmerman. That man has real issues with remaining silent.
So who else has Mr. Zimmerman shot? I believe you could lay the transcript out and even though you quoted Mr. Zimmerman word for word some will say well this is what Mr. Zimmerman meant. But those same people will not ever give Trayvon the benefit of the doubt.
Trayvon's parents were on t.v. today? Man this daytime t.v. ban is really really horrible. I know it is hard on a Mom when they lose a child but I feel real bad for Trayvon's brother. Snoopy I hope you have a peaceful day on the 20th. I am sorry for your loss.
[No one is causing me any trouble now, Michelle, but it can change at a moment's notice in this world of blogging. By the way, I haven't taken a bath in years.
I must say, I watched Dr. Phil today and my eyes welled up more than once. It was one of the most touching programs I've ever seen. Trayvon's parents are just ordinary people, just like you and me. To see them suffer was downright heartbreaking.]
Dave~ ~I lost it today when Dr Phil mentioned Sabrina's tears putting Trayvon's candle out. I think it renewed the faith I had lost in McGraw. He just blew me away when he was instructing T's parents and brother on how to cope. It was coming from his heart and not scripted. I am unsure of Dr Phil's ratings but will say one thing, Zimmerman was destroyed today on that show.
[I must say, it didn't bode well for Z. I don't think it changed any of his supporter's opinions, though. I'm pretty certain the camps are fairly split now and deeply embedded. It's almost like a war is festering or something, but only in the extreme camps. There are still a few moderates.]
Dave~ ~ a huge galvanized tub is en route to Casselberry. I hope it don't fall off the flat bed. I also included a case of sunlight soap and a rubber ducky. Now get busy and fill a few big stew pots and heat them on the stove.
Anything for my buddy... Ecossie was going to ship his own personal tin tub to you but I told him that I had an extra one with a copper bottom.
[I shower.]
Nothing like a good old fashioned soaking.... I wonder if a bar of Ivory still floats... many things float like rubber duckies..
Dave~~I can't seem to get serious... it has been a long week and all work and no play...hey...
I didn't mind the fact that someone wanted me pushed in a snowbank. The fact that they put out an offer of $500 for someone to do it...that really hurt. I am worth more than that.
Speaking of conspiracies... as I recall Dave, you, Cindy and Baez... woot woot bringing down a judge to boot, what a hoot.
Newbie and Vick.... where art thoust?
[That's right! And that young lady in Mississippi, too. The one I got pregnant. All the way from Florida. What a stretch!]
I'm here finally ! Busy evening. Dave, I think the baby is the last to bath because they don't know not to poop or pee in the water....lol. Now, Dave, should I guess why you shower??? lol.....by the way, that was a great response. You two, nice to see a little humor.
On a scale of one to ten, Dr. Phil was a one or two with me and when he had the Anthonys on, he dropped to a minus ten. I am trying not to make this out to be all about Dr. Phil yet his questions to the Ostermans and his compassion today .....he's a number ten tonight. You know I think GZ was a disaster and the worst person he could have hooked up with is Cowboy Osterman. lt is hard to even imagine how Ostermans can believe their own hype of what happened and take no responsibility at all. I'm telling you whoever edited for the show today was pretty cool in showing exactly what Osterman and GZ's gun toting, I'm gonna get me a bad man mentality. I just about fell out of my chaikr when Osterman was sttrutting his stuff with his c/c weapon in plain site for the camera. He really believes he is tough.....(shakin my head at this point). Just who in the hell does he think he is anyway. Okay, stopping for a minute.
Well, not exactly....he thinks he's experienced and someone comin to get GZ is gonna get an experienced gun toting Rambo. Good Lord, hand him the toilet paper now.
Sorry Dave. I think I ignore your post. I am just thankful you and Snoopy stuck it out !
[I think you're quite right about this particular Dr. Phil show. He was was compassionate and it had an impact on me, as well. In the end, the Ostermans made no new friends, although I don't think it changed those who support Zimmerman, either. I'm sure they laughed at it.
I actually came out of it thinking that Osterman trained Zimmerman to kill, but at the same time, only one person was capable of pulling the trigger. We all know who admitted it.
Hopefully, you'll get around to reading the post, but if not, the most important thing is the discussion. Thanks, Newbie.]
Newbie~~hey good to see you. Rambo is a good name for Osterman. You know there are those who just may take him up on the challenge and knock on his front door. The bigger they are the harder they fall. Mark loves his job as an air marshal...lots of guns and he gets to shoot first and then question the corpse later. What a role model he was for Zimmerman. They probably played cops and robbers many time during their mentoring sessions.
One thing I will say for Dave and me. We have only had one fight in almost four years. It began around March of '08 and there is still no end in sight. lol We could make it the '100 years war' but I refuse to fight with anyone who prefers to keep dropping the soap in lieu of taking a bath. Do you think that he used to bathe after the baby and got hit with a ..... can't think of the word... yup, it rhymes with that word.. yup
[Some things never change...]
Osterman is full of hot air. He dreams of having a lot of action on his job but bet you a dollar, he's never been in a tight spot. My brother in law who is retired now was a U.S. Marshall and it aint nothing like Osterman's putting out. There was a point and time when he (brother in law) did the sittin on a plane and he's just laughin at "this Osterman".
I wonder about the Osterman's daughter and what she is hearing and being exposed to at this point. Nothing like putting your child last.
Oh dang,,, my feud with Dave began in March '09.... I will save him the pleasure of pointing out my "fox paw" ...
Newbie, we will have to ask Vicky if the Ostermans mention their daughter in the book. hmmm
You know Newbie, I have to wonder about their daughter also. You have to be protective of your child, no matter who you are. Here they are bringing in a man who 1. just shot someone 2. had a restraining order put on him for domestic violence by an ex girlfriend 3.got arrested for assault on an undercover officer and 4. whether it's true or not was accused of molestation. Friend or not, he'd be no where near my home or daughter.
I'm with you Connie on all points. Can you imagine what that child is hearing and the lack of attention she is getting in a horrible stress situation that has come into her home. Well, now that I stop and think, I would guess she's been in an up side down situation with the likes of her father.
I'm saying good night all. I've got to do something to adjust my attitude.
Yes indeed the Ostermans mentioned their daughter in the book. Quite a bit actually, and as I mentioned on the other thread, she wrote a paragraph about George in the book. She was ten at the time GZ shot Trayvon and turned 11 not long after. she was allowed to watch the news coverage and was aware that the NBP had placed a bounty on GZ. She was allowed to go to school, but was coached to tell no one the Zimmermans were at her house, as it would place all of them in danger. And expressed fear to her parents over the situation. I personally consider that child abuse, and after reading the book, I do not share Dave's opinion of the Ostermans. Some of the undertones of what they have written are very disturbing to me. I agree, Osterman may have created a monster, but in my opinion, in many ways he created him after his own self image. George just failed to pay close attention to some of the details....that darn ADHD! Seriously, I think GZ lied to Osterman because he didn't want to disappoint him. IMO, the grasshopper had been well trained to use lethal force is he or his family/home came under attack, as was Shellie. However, GZ picked the wrong time and place to prove what a good student he was, and he knew it.
The last chapter of the book is like a tribute to the CTH. so, I don't find the Ostermans admirable in any way. Snoopynhas asked that I not give page space to remarks made by the Ostermans about the family (including Trayvon), so I will respect that. Suffice it to say, I am no fan of the Ostermans and their point of view. They are completely myopic in their support of GZ.
I do believe him when he says he was at home in Lake Mary at the time of the shooting and I believe Shellie was at her father's house. Neither went to the crime scene that night, since by the time they arrived, George was already in the patrol car.
George gave them his version of events that night as they drove him home and expounded upon the "details" the following morning. In this version, Trayvon was lookingmin windows when GZ spotted him. Funny how GZ's ADHD caused him to share that detail with the dispatcher or LE duringmhis statements and interviews.
I wasn't able to view the Dr. Phil show today, but will watch video replay tomorrow. I hope my heart can take it. When I read what Dr. Phil said about the tears, I definitely chocked up, and it totally jacked with my sense of humor for the night. that and a really crappy day in the life of dealing with a teenage girl. I had almost forgotten what it was like to deal with teenagers on a full time basis. LOL. But at least she is alive and well to deal with.
[Hopefully, Z was way too afraid of what Mark Osterman would do to him if he ever tried anything funny on his daughter. On the other hand, we don't really know whether it's true or not that Z did molest his cousin, but I do agree that the way the Ostermans handled the news with their daughter was peculiar. What the family had to have anticipated, though, is that she would have heard all about it at school anyway. Perhaps it was best to coach her a bit. Keep quiet about it. I imagine, as opinionated and "cliquey" as young people could be, she would have been a convenient target.
I don't know if I made myself clear or not, but if you read Snoopy's resonse below, she got my message across. I have no love for Osterman. Nor do I respect him. All I can say is that he had no idea what was really inside the mind of Zimmerman. O's intent was to help Z grow as a person, but it backfired in more ways than one.
I'm not sure what you mean by CTH, so I can't respond to that. As for Osterman's remarks about the Martin family, he knows nothing. What value would his words be? Just the thought of it makes me want to think he's a bigot, but if he is, how could he possibly be in his profession?
That Z gave O a different story doesn't surprise me one bit. Z is a chronic liar who convinces himself he speaks the truth. There's a name for that mental illness, but I don't remember it. He thrives on an exisence of lies.
Thanks, Vicky, I appreciate your thoughts. They are always good to read.]
Its funny the different opinions people can dechipher listening to the same statement.....Firstly when I listened to gz an sz talking on the phone there lack of compassion for Trayvon an his Loved ones was apparent .But the remarks about stressing over things an how insignificant there prevoious problems were =To me 90 percent of there prior problem stemmed from money or more appt the lack there off...Since the shooting all the magical BLOOD MONEY for muredering an innocent youn boy had come pouring in....They had paid of all ther credit card debts bank debts rent debts family loan debts uttiluuty debts an brobably for the first time since they had met were not onnly debt free but had money beyond ther wildest dreams.An with his new found celeb status no appernt reason to them why it should ever end.Hence all there previous monetry stessing was insignificant.A gift fron God so to speak.Secondly when Osterman stated on Phil Im not a real doctor quick on the draw Mc graws show.He was suprised that gz had shot someone else..= To me he had trained him with firearms ect probably realised he wasnt the beat shot in the world...Dont have to be when you shoot your pray point blank...Anyway he had probably half expecting a call informing him that gz had accidently shot himself in the foot or something..So thats was my take on the someone else comment......
[What really surprises me is that Zimmerman's supporters don't mind at all that he took their donations to pay for personal things, not just for his defense. Then, they claim he never looked at it as if it was his. What idiots! The a-holz spent it like it was their own money. How stupid ARE his fans?]
Snoops Im not sure but I dont think anyone can carry a gun on a plane legaly even an air marshal.Whats the point ? if you dischrged it an missed or went through the hijacker or target .An aeroplanes fusalage is very very thin an a bullet peircing it would kill everyone in the plane if it were at altitude....I think they probably have maze tazers knife?An some sort of gun that fires non lethal non peirceing bullets in it.But enough to bring an agressor down..Dont know though just guesing...
This is my comment that I posted on the SYG article before I found this one.
I don't watch Dr Phil but I watched today. I did fine until he told the story about the children in heaven taking a walk with God and lighting a candle. One boy wouldn't go on the walk and finally they asked him why and he said"everytime I light a candle my mother's tears put it out". Dr Phil was telling Trayvon's mom to remember the good times with Trayvon and to celebrae his life,he wouldn't want you to cry all the time. That did it for me I'm crying just typing this. What an amazing couple this is and what great parents they were.
How can anyone believe and stand up for that poor excuse for a human who killed that child,three weeks to the day after he turned 16.
The parents want a trial and IMHO that's what should happen.
The Osterman's make me sick. I believe you should stand up for friends,but not with lies.
We had a youth leader in the church awhile back,a friend,and he was accused and admitted molesting two young girls. He admitted it and is now in jail. However before it was brought to light he continued to serve in church services. I was devasted and very angry at his betrayal of all we as a church stood for. I did not,would not take his side in any of those actions or condone what he did.
I have no problem with those on this or any site that look at Zimmerman's side from what the evidence released to date shows. Making excuses is a whole different ball game. There simply aren't any excuses. Like Dr. Phil said,if Zimmerman had stayed in his truck as advised and not gone after him,Trayvon would still be alive today. That's the bottom line. No matter who says what.
Okay I'm off my soap box. I'm going to the kitchen to make some brunch.
[I hope I never run into the Ostermans. He's liable to shoot me by the time I'm done speaking my mind. I don't trust him with a gun, either.]
Dave you havent bathed in years?...I have a bath once a year!Wether or not I need one.
[Actually, the last time I took a bath, I was not alone. But we will not go there.]
Vicky ~~yes now I remember you did say that Osterman's daughter wrote a chapter in the book. I think that is terrible and I expect she was ordered to do it. I wonder if they take her out on the firing range, hopefully she is not allowed there due to her tender age. It is sad to think the Osterman's exposed their child to fear and put the Zimmermans over the welfare of their own child. I agree that it is child abuse.
I am beginning to wonder if the ADHD is an excuse some use to live in their fantasy worlds. They seem to take pleasure in trying to push others to the limit and think we believe their bullshit. Nuff said.
Thanks, Vick, for not posting all the things that the Ostermans had to say about Trayvon's family. I don't even have to read it to know that they probably blamed T for being born.
In defense of Dave's post, I don't think that he feels the Ostermans are model citizens so I am unsure what you meant by not agreeing with him. Maybe some of his words were taken out of context. Another commenter got confused and misinterpreted the Tree huggers, Tray huggers. I knew exactly what he meant as he was referring to all the conspiracy theories that the pro T's seem to come up with.
Thanks so much for keeping us up to date, Vick. You are awesome and have memory like a sponge that absorbs everything.
Good luck with your teenage fare. What is she, one who is 13 going on 25? lol
[You are 100% right in your interpretation of what I wrote, Snoopy. Thank you.]
ecossie possie, aren't you afraid of getting dry skin bathing that often?
You know I was so distraught yesterday and it took me the full day to finally realize I don't really feel there is justice for TM and the Martins. It is not good enough that GZ pay for what he has done. I want to see CHANGE !!!!! Change in laws and change in people's attitudes toward their fellow man. I think that is about all I have to say from this point forward.
Ecossie~~I am with you all the way. When I heard Mark Osterman say that he was shocked that Z killed someone else, like you I figured he meant that Z being a klutz he probably shot himself. I also agree with your interpretation of all the money coming in to the Z via the donations. I think they felt like a person does who has just won a lotto. Judging by all their outstanding debts, they finally could see light at the end of the tunnel.
Many think that I am pro Zimmerman and condone what happened. That is so far from the truth. What I hate is for some to take everything that Z or Shellie say and twist and turn it to shed them in a bad light. Shellie and George are human and to 'err is human'... I just want to be fair to both sides. It started out with NBC and other media outlets who portrayed Z as a racist and the skum of the earth. No wonder he gained the sympathy of a select few because he was being portrayed as a scapegoat for those with an agenda, be it race, political or otherwise. I want Z to get a fair trial in a court of law and let a jury decide his future not people who want to satisfy their own agendas.
I was just speaking with a man who has been in the air industry for many years. Air Marshals do carry guns on the planes. The holster is strapped to their ankle. The reason for this is so the seat belt will not trigger the gun to go off. The pilot and the air marshall both have keys to the tin box that holds the gun and ammo. This is unlocked and the air marshall dons the holster along with the gun and takes a seat in the plane so he will be inconspicuous. Along with the pilots and air crew, the air marshall is already aboard before the passenger board the plane. The air marshall is a marksman and I was told that if he missed his target and the bullet hit the fuselage, the whole would be so small that the plane may drop a few thousand feet but could be brought up to pressure and regain altitude. I was told what kind of gun the air marshalls use and forget the make.
Tommy's Mom~~I cannot see George Zimmerman wiggling his way out of this one and going Scott free. One problem is as it was in the Anthony case, we get to see so much information that will never be allowed into evidence if and when this trial goes forward. Notice I say, 'if' this goes to trial. We have a self-defense evidentiary mini trial that will take place before an actual trial before six jurors. Judge Debra Nelson will decide if the case will be thrown out. After the Anthony case, I always keep my guard up. We were so sure that Casey would be convicted, in fact we were over confident along with Linda Burdick and Jeff Ashton. I think even Ashton agreed that Murder One should not have been on the table. JMO but I think in the Zimmerman case they should go with manslaughter but I am not an expert.
Dave is busy in the real world but will be popping in later...
IIm with you Snoops I want gz to receive his day in court with a fair impartial jury an have his say.He needs to explain as he had a concealed carry gun pemit.Not a concealed carry right to kill permit.I M O his actions that night were not reasonable.I think a fair impsrtial jury would agree.How ever due to Americas pecuilar way of turning both crime an politics into entertainment.Half the talking heads gossipers bassicly work 24 / 7 ..Comenting on criime an politics..In the UK we would never allow the pre trial speculation about any acussed guilt or innocence.Even when something huge happens like Dr Shipman or the yorkshire ripper fred an rose west.Theres no chance of seeiing or hearing evidence untill the trial/In fact theres been a couple of cases dissmisssed before ttrial had began due to leaked evidence an undue press intrest in a case makeing it impossable for the defandant to receive a fair trial...Thats why as a crime buff I follow American crime cases.We dont allow cameras in court to film or beam trials live.An our enyitr legal process is swiffter than American justice system.As is our politicing we have 4 weeks of electioneering every 4 years or so an thats it .In America you have managed to turrn it into a 385 days of the year event.As soon as a President is elected he is fighting for either a second term .Or that a sucsessor of his choice an his party sucseeds him ...i m o its strange..still keeps the talking heads in work maybe theve got a strong union.
Newbie~~from the info that I have been reading and that comes in my alerts, I am not sure we will see the gun laws changed anytime soon. The lawmakers do not want to admit that by amending the SYG laws they made a fatal mistake. It is too bad that politics takes priority to rationality. It seems that enacting laws is so much easier than trying to redact them. I think they should have strict background checks on those who want to carry a concealed weapon. As it is now, any kook can conceal and carry and the streets are becoming war zones and it doesn't take much to haul out a gun and shoot someone between the eyes when he looks at you the wrong way. Why don't some of these lawmakers pay attention to the statistics?
Ecossie~~our laws here in Canada are basically the same as yours. Our RCMP and provincial police play everything close to the vest during their investigations. It is against the law for the media outlets to discuss the cases and try those found charges with crimes in public. I find it very boring when we have a case here under investigation and it's like pulling hen's teeth trying to get any info. Our provincial and federal elections are the same too. They call an election and vote a month later.
I guess that is why Matey, you and I hit the state of Florida to do our armchair detective work. It is more interesting and we get to peek in windows and attics too. lol I am surprised they allow Floridians to wear clothes... can you imagine Dave running around in the buff? ...God forbid since he doesn't take a bath.
Great post Dave. I'm sorry all of that happened to you, that's insanity. There are people out there, that don't know where to draw the line. I have to agree with you on Mr. Taaffe. The poor man has been through enough. I hope you are having a great weekend. :)
[Thank you, Joanna. It was quite ugly, let me tell you. I had absolutely no idea how bad it could get.
Poor Frank Taaffe. He did most of the damage to himself, but it's easy to see how much of a troubled man he is. I'd hate to see someone push him off the cliff when he is quite capable of doing that to himself.
I'm having a good weekend, too, thank you. I hope you are, as well.]
Dave, your article reaches into the soul for motivation.
I was not interested in the Casey Anthony trial, and never formed an opinion -- never read any blogs about the case. That in fact, the two names, Casey and Caylee, confused me at times where I didn't know if they were talking about the mother or the child. When the jury returned its verdict, I thought all those interested would lay it to rest.
About 2 wks ago, I began receiving comments to my blog that sounded somewhat threatening. Evidently, the person trolled and found where I posted to a blog site discussing the Zimmerman case, where the blog owner supported Casey Anthony. I was warned that associating with the other blog would ruin my "good reputation." Apparently not replying soon enough for their satisfaction, they commented again, that time with insults towards my blog. It reminded me of days gone by when children threatened that if you play with someone they dislike, they will beat you up.
Getting to Osterman's interview and book, I too picked up on the "someone else." The prosecution is behaving as they should -- not showing their entire hand. They may already know if Zim previously shot someone else and was not charged.
The prosecution has reason for entering the M&I Bank vid into discovery. I don't know their reason. Some believe that the last person on that vid around 6:38 p.m. is Osterman. Some do not think it is him. I do see a physical resemblance. Zim's phone records have been entered in discovery but not released to the public. In his interview with Hannity, Zim said that he and Shellie always shop for groceries on Sunday evenings. His dad said the same in an interview on Fox news. IIRC, his dad also stated that when he volunteered to give a statement to investigators.
I've never gone as far as to say that someone else helped Zim. He alone killed Trayvon -- just throwing out how some have taken the information and expounded on it matter-of-factly rather than say it is what they suspect or their personal theory.
One thing about Osterman is that when his redacted statement was first released, and someone put two and two together about his wife performing Zim's marriage ceremony and got his name, a newspaper reported contacting the federal agency that Osterman works for. The fed agency responded that information is confidential because their agents perform sensitive work undercover on planes. Now that Osterman has gone public, I wonder if that effects his job? IOWs, he was not responsible for someone ferreting out his identity, but he voluntarily wrote a book and appeared on Dr. Phil.
[Ahhhhhh, Xena, I love reaching into the soul!
As soon as the Casey Anthony trial ended, I put it to rest. While others continued to carry on and write about it, I got over it. Time to move on, and after three years of covering it, I needed and deserved a break. I TOOK ONE. Until this case came along...
I'm so sorry for what you are going through. No one deserves it. What your opinion is and where you choose to comment is your business, and no one has a right to disparage you. What they are trying to do is intimidate you, but don't ever consider giving in. I know. It sure crossed my mind many times, but I never did. And they never won. This seems to be the same thing, all over again, but a different crowd. What is the same, though, is that they base their attacks not on facts or intellectual superiority. They never do. The object is to bully by brute verbal abuse. Heck, they can't even use $2 words, so don't worry about it.
One thing that people might not understand is that Osterman lives right around the corner from the Zimmermans. Back then, anyway, so even if it were Mark at the bank drive-thru at 6:38, he could have been home in minutes and out walking his dog. That, in itself, is not damning evidence.
I don't have a problem with people discussing someone else being involved, but I, as a writer, wouldn't put forth the notion that someone else was. I tried to be very careful about that while I covered the other case because I could readily see how easily rumors started and spread like wildfire. Too many times, someone wrote something and, before you knew it, it became Gospel. People forget where they read things, and by reading it, it almost legitimizes it. That's what I was warning against.
As for Osterman's book? While I don't believe it, I agree he had a right to write it. However, in his capacity as an undercover agent for the US government, after appearing on Dr. Phil, he's not an effective undercover agent any more, is he? Spotting him on a plane got a whole lot easier.
Thanks, Xena!]
SHELLIE:: No. After this, we go over, you’re gonna be able to just, have a great life.
ZIMMERMAN: We will.
SHELLIE: Yeah, we will. You’re
ZIMMERMAN: I’m (inaudible) excited.
SHELLIE: Yeah, you should be. You should be excited.
That is a strange little dialogue. I could understand it as a pep talk - "everything will be fine once this is all over" - but to talk about being excited when he's in jail, charged with second degree murder...that's just weird. And I wonder what she meant by "After this, we go over" - go over where?
But, I'm sorry Dave, I agree with Bryan on how to interpret the "perspective" conversation; just before she said something about how this all puts things into perspective (I'm paraphrasing), she spoke about how she wished he was there with her, how she could see him walking through the door. It's a separate dialogue from the rest.
It was simpler when this began as an outrage because the SPD refused to arrest Zimmerman after having shot and killed Trayvon. The charges of racism were not initially leveled at Zimmerman as they were at the SPD. Yes, there was speculation that Zimmerman was racist because he shot a black kid, but I believe it wasn't until his record of non-emergency and 911 calls were released that Zimmerman himself became more the focus of the racist charge. As for the fetid swamps of many of the more notable pro-Zimmerman sites, I don't think there was much to them until Obama said something about how Trayvon could have been his son. And then all hell broke loose.
Here's a
Reuters story that tells how it all began media-wise, and this NBC article is about the guy (about as Gaelic looking as one can get) who started the Change.org petition demanding that the SPD charge and arrest Zimmerman.
I think a lot of Zimmerman advocates - not all by any means - genuinely believe he is the victim of bleeding heart liberals who hate guns and will always side with black people and against authority (police), and who hate guns and want to get rid of the Second Amendment (except when they've aligned with black people to act against authority - a fantasy they relish thinking about even as it's a nightmare that terrifies them). They ignore those sites with liberals supporting Zimmerman, and with conservatives believing that Zimmerman committed a crime.
Just as they ignore the disconnect between Zimmerman's narratives and his NEN call, witness statements, and forensic evidence.
I detest the New Black Panthers, but, in all fairness, that $10,000 bounty was for Zimmerman's "capture" and citizen's arrest. That is how it was reported before it got all garbled, but the NBPs are terrible people anyway, and it could have led to more tragedy if one of their admirers actually found Zimmerman. On the other hand, no one believed that they really had the money.
[I can understand the pep talk, nenerinys, but that's as far as I'll go with it. I would expect there to be topical conversations about what's going on in their lives, but I got the dinstinct impression that they were both relishing in his new-found fame and wealth, as if it were a godsend/windfall they deserved. There was no remorse over the loss of a life.
I agree with you about how the racial overtones shifted from the SPD to him over time. Is Zimmerman a racist? I don't think so in the truest sense, like someone in the KKK. Not even close, but I do feel he's apprehensive about people of color. Had Obama prefaced his statement with, "Black or white, Trayvon looks like everyone's son, including mine," he would have totally neutralized the opposition. However, the fact remains that the president IS dark complected and Trayvon could have looked like his son. Unfortunately, some people just don't like that fact. I wonder who they think Zimmerman looks like? George Washington?
To be honest, I wasn't familiar with the petition guy, Kevin Cunningham, so thanks for enlightening me on that.
I tend to agree with you on the Zimmerman advocates - to a certain extent. No way can all those people be racist, so there's got to be a strong gun rights percentage. However, how can people be so duped? Just owning a gun doesn't mean that person should. Zimmerman is a prime example of a gun owner gone bad. Where are these same people when universities and theaters and other public places of mass murder take place? Do they support the gunmen then? I believe so because they are silent. Never would they take a stand against anyone with a gun, and that's just sad.
While I do agree that the NBPP never offered the bounty for killing Zimmerman, it was pretty clear it didn't matter whether he was delivered dead or alive. “An eye for an eye, a tooth for a tooth,” New Black Panther leader Mikhail Muhammad said when he announced the reward. That was totally wrong. It's just as wrong as what Zimmerman did; he took the law into his own hands.
I'm sorry your comment got locked up in moderation. I've had some that didn't show up for days and I have no control over it. I hope you see that I did come back and respond. I hope others come back and read it, too. You wrote some smart things there and I am grateful. Thank you.]
I stumbled unto this from The Last Refuge Blog don't remember why I book marked the site.
Dave, Do you know anything about this blog?
Very strange.
George Zimmerman never met Trayvon Martin; at least not the Trayvon Martin the media has introduced people to.
George Zimmerman never met the 12-year-old pee-wee football player who was described by his teacher as “majoring in cheerfulness”
That “child” was never in the life of George Zimmerman. The child yearning for Skittles and Iced Tea the media describes, was never present on the night of February 26th 2012. So who did George meet?
George Zimmerman met a six foot two inch, 160 lb, young man.
George met a 17-year-old troubled teenager who was missing any substantive adult in his life to understand him, engage with him, monitor him and deliver guidance to him. George met the outcome of two detached and divorced parents who choose to view their son, Trayvon, as a task. A task to be managed.
George met the legally dependent son of Sybrina Fulton and Tracy Martin.
George also met the step-son of Alicia Martin, whose husband, Tracy, Sybrina’s ex and Trayvon’s “dad”, was having a long-term affair with his now pregnant girlfriend Brandi Greene.
Clipped from The Last Refuge Blog Posted on September 16, 2012by sundancecracker
[All I can say, Tommy's Mom, is to each their own. None of those people ever spent one second in the company of any of the Martins or any of Trayvon's relatives or friends. They have no access to his school or medical records, yet they know all about his truancies and mental faculties. This is a prime example of what I just wrote about. Someone writes something and the rest of the lemmings believe every word of it. They are like geese without heads. Long necks and flapping bodies of content not worthy of reading, let alone believing. Like the saying goes, pay no attention to the man behind the curtain. What they spin is a weave of lies. It must be, because there is no way possible for anyone to verify what they write.
I want no problems with them, but I cannot understand why they would only choose to believe the words (quite plural) of a liar. As for the constant insults, I saw the same thing during the Anthony case... people who are nothing more than hypocrites. Look at what was written about Tracy's pregnant girlfriend, as if he corners the market in this sort of thing. Look at their holier-than-thou attitudes, but only when it comes to this family of African-Americans. Illegitimate white babies are OK, obviously. Why is that?]
Dave: The following is a link to a new video by LLMPapa. As he has aptly titled it, LLMPapa takes a look at some of the critical elements of Zimmerman's timeline.
Respectfully springing off of his video, I began a timeline--but I included elements from the call(s) between DeeDee and Trayvon.
The following will show why I believe DeeDee is so very unpopular with the Zimmerman supporters.
Published on Sep 16, 2012 by LLMPapa | Zimmerman's Elements Of Time
7:09:34 George’s NEN call begins
7:10:06 to 7:10:54 (approx.) DeeDee is on the phone with Trayvon. Trayvon told her that a man was in a car watching him. The man was in a car and on the phone. Trayvon started walking. Trayvon told DeeDee the man was coming at him. The man was going to hit him. The phone connection was lost.
7:10:21 George said Trayvon was staring at him.
7:10:32 George said Trayvon was coming towards him.
7:10:37 George said Trayvon had his hand in his waistband.
7:10:49 In a statement to LE, George said that he was parked at the clubhouse. (This is where LLMPapa calculates in his video that it is 518 feet from the clubhouse to the ‘T’ intersection, where George said Trayvon ran to and was hiding (in the bushes.) Zimmerman’s ever changing stories also include a version where Trayvon walked (or ran; or skipped), another 411 feet as Trayvon came back from the “T”, circled George’s vehicle now parked on Twin Trees Lane, and returned to the bushes at the “T”. This is a total of 929 feet. See time 7:12:54 below for more on the 'distance' aspect.)
7:11:16 (approx.) DeeDee called Trayvon. Trayvon told DeeDee he was going to run.
7:11:32 George tells the Dispatcher that Trayvon was running toward the back entrance. During the next 16 seconds, the door chime on George’s vehicle sounded; and the car door was heard closing.
7:11:59 The dispatcher explained to George that they don’t need him to follow Trayvon. DeeDee said that Trayvon sounded panicked. DeeDee said Trayvon said he thought the man got out of his car and was still following him. In an interview with LE, George said he was at the dog walk “T” intersection.
7:12:10 In a statement to LE, George said that he was on Retreat View Circle. George could not see Trayvon at this time.
7:12:27 (approx.) Trayvon told DeeDee that he thought he had lost the man. He was breathing hard.
7:12:34 George said he began to walk back to his vehicle. (Sounds can be clearly heard at this point on the NEN call—whether it is George thumping his flashlight trying to get it to come on; or George doing something with his gun—we will most likely never know for sure. The detective asked George what he was doing right at this moment—his only reply was that he was walking back to his vehicle.)
7:12:54 Back to the explanation of the distance--this time generously allows George 20 seconds—(apparently, he did it the first time in 11 seconds)—to again reach the dog walk “T” after returning from Retreat View Circle. This is where and when, according to George’s story, that Trayvon would have attacked him. Keeping with George’s version of the events, Trayvon would have had to walk (or run; or skip) at a speed of about eight feet per second to cover the 929 feet required by the time frame.)
7:13:37 George’s call to the NEN ends.
7:14:34 to 7:15:29 (approx.) Trayvon told DeeDee that he was walking back to Brandi’s townhouse. Trayvon told DeeDee that the man was once again following him—from behind. The man overcame the distance. DeeDee heard Trayvon say: “Why are you following me?” She heard the man reply: “What are you doing around here?” She heard a noise like something hitting something. She heard the faint sound of Trayvon saying: “Get Off!” The line went dead.
7:16:11 Witness calls 911 stating there is someone screaming outside.
7:16:57 The gun shot is heard.
LLMPapa selected Joe Cocker's 'Lie To Me' for his music. After I had listened to the video a couple of times, the tune 'Hotel California' by the Eagles came into my head, and I still can't get it out.
Anyway, in case Michelle reads this--I will llink the tune. Something tells me she has never heard it.
[Another excellent video from LLMPappa, nan11. I didn't go into this case not wanting to believe George, but his excuses, not alibis, are all over the place, time wise and what took place. Even a child couldn't be fooled.
I think that part of the reason why DeeDee is so unpopular with the Z supporters has to do with racism, too, but she is definitely a threat. Fortunately, their words will do nothing to discredit her outside of their own little world. However, I would be careful if I were her. There's no telling how many of these nutcases have ideas and a willingness to break the law for their guy. I don't trust them.
Thanks for the link and your play-by-play. I am a huge Eagles fan, too. I hope, one day, George Zimmerman spends "The Last Worthless Evening" in front of a jury about to convict him.]
Hey Dave -- What a very poignant post, all the more so because of the great perspective you have when it comes to the perils of taking sides in online discussions of murder cases. The fact that you have managed to allow posters to engage in dialog without the roof falling in is a testament to your both your principles and to the fact that you have learned so much from experiences.
I was going to mention that you're talking about conspiracy theorists, but I see that this point was made in the comments above, so I'll just add my voice to those that share this opinion. People who try to assign culpability to everyone and everything that is mentioned in a case like this, on either side, do tremendous damage to themselves and to those they touch. Information is presumed to be evidence. And you can't argue with someone who reaches conclusions based on confirmation bias rather than the facts.
I was a silent observer of your personal saga during the Caylee Anthony case. Who could imagine such deceit and destructiveness? It's amazing that you're still here (and not only here, but thriving--congratulations on being featured on the Daily Kos!). I love the Internet, but if it has a downside, it is that it has allowed the conspiracy theorists (whom, the psychologists tell us, are motivated by a sense of inferiority and a desire not to learn but to simply win and prove that they are right [superior) to gather and thus create a new species of monster (I follow birtherism in all its glory, and there is nothing like it).
Your piece, which I called poignant above, is also sad. I wanted to say, yes, it makes me sad too. Everyone slinging around the blame, which, as always (as in your case), ends up on those who deserve it the least. Is GZ a monster? Probably not. Is he a self-aggrandizing punk whom society saw fit to provide with a gun? That's what he appears to be to me. In my day, what he did was the very definition of manslaughter--like vehicular homicide, which involves the negligence of the driver. Who's to blame? For me, the society that gave GZ--a punk with ADHD and a string of run-ins with the law--a gun and told him he could carry it on his person wherever he went shares a huge responsibility for Trayvon's death. No, I don't think the people who are guilty of vehicular manslaughter intended to kill anyone. But they did, and the law says that they have to pay a penalty. No, I don't think GZ intended to kill anyone. But he did--only know the law, perhaps making room for its own mistake in giving him a gun, seems to lean in the direction of saying he did nothing wrong. Which also makes me sad. But what makes me sadder is the throngs of repulsive mudslingers and blame-gamers who are pushing as hard as they can against that already leaning law in an attempt to topple it without regard to facts, compassion, or respect for the victims. Without care for the people they crush beneath their combined weight. Just so they can feel in their miserable little hearts that they were right; that they won. RIP, Travyon Martin.
[What a poignant comment from you, as well, p0rtia, and so well thought out. I don't know what to say! I do think it's second-degree murder, though, because the State will try to prove that the shooting was completely avoidable. Zimmerman purposely put himself in harm's way by stalking the boy. He didn't set out to kill him, but he most assuredly did, and not one real shred of evidence points to Martin being the aggressor. Not, at least, the way Zimmerman tells the story, which varies so greatly, it's pathetic. That's going to be his downfall. His lies. The State will shred his timeline to shreds, too.
Thank you so much for your great thoughts. You are so right. And I'm glad you hung in there. God knows how awful times were back then. How many times did I think about quitting? I have no idea, but I never, ever gave in to them.
I almost failed to mention your congrats on my Daily Kos column. Thank you for that, too. I'm glad I'm doing that.]
Dave
ITA I read all of the post and it was very nasty and showed some pictures of Trayvon not in the best light. What kind of person puts this stuff out there?
[People with nothing else to base their premise on. If the facts don't line up, trash the opponent. They look at Trayvon as the enemy. This is not a case about guilt or innocence to them.]
In all fairness, I could understand the pro-Zimmerman people in the beginning. With what little was known and then to have a major media network skew their reports, it made people lean towards him in sympathy. But, after evidence comes out, like the opportunities GZ had to introduce himself, and the closeness of the bullet to Trayvon's chest and it not lining up with the hole in his hoodie, I cannot understand their allegience unless they have the same mentality as GZ had when he went looking for the young man-"F'ing punks always get away but not this time!" And I read their comments with disbelief because they accuse us of not reading the evidence!
Great write-up, Dave, with equally great comments.
[Well, hello, Sherry! In the beginning, I thought Zimmerman was an idiot for getting out of his vehicle with a loaded gun. That was all, but it made me suspicious of him right away. Still, it was the evidence, but primarily his lies and lies and lies that's disgusted me. How anyone could believe otherwise is scary. It means they are so biased, so closed-minded, it's pathetic. Zimmerman could shoot them in the gut and they still wouldn't believe it..
Thanks. I'm glad you enjoyed the article AND the ensuing comments. It's a team effort, no doubt.]
Sherry~~It's a team effort, WITHOUT a doubt.
Nice to see you. I am trying to find out when Shellie Zimmerman's appearance in court on the perjury charges is scheduled for. It is on the records as Sept 19th with Judge Nelson but was rumored that is was set over to October.
Dave, let me begin by staing what I should have in my previous comment. I really enjoyed your post. please excuse my poor manners in not saying so to begin with. I also think I may have not clearly stated my difference in opinion about Osterman. I agree that he was working with GZ on self improvement. I just think part of those life lessons included teachings reinforced George's feelings of superiority. CTH is short for the website that has produced the majority of negative press about Trayvon and his family. The individual mentioned above (sun dancer) is a key contributor to that website. Suffice it to say, the fact that Osterman referenced the information there throughout his final chapter does not leave me with a positive impression of him.
I am in complete agreement with you about off the chart theories that have come from both sides of this controversy and the complete lack of respect shown toward individuals with different opinions about GZ's guilt. And the attacks on individuals and families impacted by this tragedy. I doubt I would have ever mentioned MO, had he not published his self serving book. I am all too familiar with how hateful and viscous people on blogs can be. And know exactly what you and Snoops were put through during the CA trial. How people can feel justified in the kind of behavior I observed then and once again during this upcoming trial is beyond me. so, if my comment above was at all perceived as too harsh, I apologize. I really was having a bad day. :)
[Oh, Vicky, there was never a need for you to preface your comment with any sort of compliment on my post. It's there to read, but the door is always open for commenters. Thank you, but I never gave it a passing thought.
I wholeheartedly agree that Osterman made Zimmerman feel superior, but at the same time, I don't think he knew what he was creating any more than he ever considered that Zimmerman would (or could) come close to his level. I think he considered Zimmerman as smarter than he really was, not to mention the common sense factor which, quite obviously, didn't exist then any more than it does now. What he never figured in was that Z would strive to equal and surpass him. I don't think Osterman took a lot of things into consideration, but in the end, it was still Z who killed Trayvon, lock, stock and barrel, but he did pick out the gun and show him how to use it. Z was like a drunk driver - drunk with the fever of authority. He had to have it and the envy he held for his friend only compelled him.
I know what you mean now with CTH. I had no idea that Osterman referenced that site in his book. That says a lot.
I, for one, am glad you read the book and told us all about it. As long as I wrote about the Anthony case, I still had to listen to the other side, even after what they did to me and Judge Strickland. Believe me, I completely understand where you are coming from and respect you more for it. At least you formulated your opinion after that, too. As for what I wrote in my post, I think a lot of us know what it's all about. The attacks can be relentless, and I refuse to stir up anything. Your comment was not at all harsh, and there is absolutely no need to apologize. If you hadn't just told me, I wouldn't have known you were having a bad day. I still wouldn't, but thank you. I always look forward to your comments, so keep that in mind. They are great, so thank you.]
Sempre~~I did not find your previous comments harsh at all. You did one heck of a fine job telling us all what was in MO's book. Many times I have written something intending it to mean one thing but has been interpreted meaning the total opposite. In fact, I am a pro at doing it. I was forever trying to explain myself. I think some still feel I am pro Zimmerman and for the life of me can't understand why. In fact I never ever was. Because I like to look at both sides, it comes across that I am one of those birches in the tree stand. I am all for the human race so that makes me a racists. Anyhoo, you still be my heroess.